Asymmetric destruction

[Triplefox]

I've been playing the "aloha babel" server constantly the last few days since the destruction in it has become asymmetric(can't grief your side, have to be close to the other side's structures). This mode manages to capture the core attraction of "classic AoS" and then some because construction is encouraged by mechanics again, and now complex freestanding structures are a realistic option on pubs too(which was never true in the old days). It even expands some of the strategy, since asymmetry means that you cannot always pursue tunneling attackers directly.

Of course, it's still not perfect as-is. One flaw with the existing mode is that a skilled player on the opposing team can bury your intel on your side, locking it away forever. I've already suggested moving the mode to 1ctf or r1ctf. This would be a quick fix and expand available strategies(build your tower or steal the intel).

My other major irritation with the mode as it is, is that the restricted zones are a bit too big, so the no-mans-land doesn't exist. We could experiment with some ability to correct errors by letting individual builders remove their own blocks(with some limitation on undo time or number to prevent "groundwork grief" - building the lowest parts and then removing them later), and with allowing digging in the map's original terrain so that pursuit of attackers is possible again. Even without those changes, though, the middle of the map should allow free construction so that the typical AoS trenches and bunkers are possible.

I propose that asymmetric play could be generalized to regular CTF, TC and TOW modes too:

Controlled tents and your own intel are "zones of control."

Zones of control have the area around it become an indestructable zone for your team.

The zone of control should always teleport into the topmost block, to prevent griefing behaviors(building ceilings to bury tents and intel, surrounding them with fall-to-death-high walls).

As soon as you lose control(tent lost, intel stolen), you can destroy the area again.

This would further the breadth of the existing mechanics; attackers try to tunnel their way in, while defenders build up a tower to snipe and to make the objective hard to access. In the areas outside zones of control, building would be open as usual, so that trenches and tunnels can be used, and useless structures may be griefed.

[Mortiis]

it sounds great, we need a script like that in pyspades

[PXYC]

Very good idea, I like it.

[SIMOX]

But.. I love killing tunnel rats by digging straight to them.

It maybe works on babel map but i don't thing it would work on gen maps. I can see a lot of abuse in this. And what if i want to dig trenches or something like that in my team territory to protect intel, base, etc?
And What if ppl start building random junk (you know what i mean), walls, spamming blocks, etc?

I hope this is suggestion as a better mode which would be in default AoS.

[Defaulter]

Hey Fox,

I quite agree with your idea. I am sick of people griefing the tent location etc.

And also i do agree this will bring back some of the core aspects of AoS, that of late seem to have departed us.

- DE

[DukeofDeuceland]

I dislike anything that involves indestructible sniper nests. You know someone's in there, but you can't get to them. You decide to leave, and get shot in the back of the head. Not fun at all.
Maybe limit the amount of blocks that you can break every minute on your side of the map? It would solve everything but groups or griefers working together to knock something down. You can get to people tunneling right under the surface, unbury your tent/intel, get to that annoying sniper who just covered up his sniping hole, get rid of that block you misplaced when building your epic tower, ect.

[asdfzxc]

The griefers with shovels aren't the ones to worry about. It's the ones who run around trapping people inside blocks that you have to watch out for.

[Articsledder]

Should only apply player placed blocks.

[Triplefox]

I just implemented this stuff in the "zoc" script. Everything is there except for distinguishing map and user blocks. I'll wait on that feature to see if everything else works correctly.

[Gorman]

Good work, this could turn out to be quite interesting.

[izzy]

i too support the idea of asymmetric destruction and i think your "zones of control" is a step in the right direction that can greatly improve most of the existing game modes. destruction grief by teammates is a lot more damaging to gameplay than construction grief by teammates, and the implementation of asymmetric destruction in Babel proved to completely do away with destruction grief by teammates.

as for Babel itself, i'm trying it with 1CTF on aloha right now and i reduced the restricted zones so they're closer to where towers are usually constructed. there's more no man's land now but construction mistakes by teammates and construction grief by teammates are still problems. what kinds of solutions do you have planned for ZOC?

allowing team destruction of freshly placed blocks and/or limited destruction of "settled" blocks might be good enough solutions. some (very rough) examples i'm thinking of are:

• if block was placed by team in restricted zone less than (30) seconds ago, then allow team to destroy it without conditions
• if block was placed by team in restricted zone more than (30) seconds ago, then allow team to destroy it with conditions:
  
  • destroyer must wait (10) seconds before destroying another settled block
    
    • destroyer is attackable by team during those (10) seconds

[CalenLoki]

After some testing on Aloha:
-I'd reduce protected zone even more - to be 32 blocks wide (atm is 64, right?) and to go forward only about 10 blocks below the platform.
Reason is that it should protect the tower (which always fit into said zone), NOT the enemy sniper/griefing nests on the sides. It obviously doesn't apply for nests made inside/below the tower, but brave actions should be rewarded. It would also allow more fluent bunker/trench building close to the tower, which as we know require digging just as much as placing blocks.
-To make jackhammering still usable, area from where enemy can destroy your tower should be bigger than protected area - something like 32 blocks bounder in all directions. But their cover would be destructible by your team, so digging right under the tower would be still rewarded.
-Destroying blocks in you own tower could be ability gained for helping your team. It could be done with points: you gain 2 points for killing enemy, 1 for placing 10 blocks within your protected zone, 1 for destroying 10 blocks in enemy zone, you can accumulate up to 6 points, destroying block within your zone costs 1 point.
This way any griefer would have to help his team first, and no structure can be griefed with just 6 blocks (except shitty or abandoned structures)
Alternatively points could be granted per time, but it would allow AFK griefers who just wait till they can destroy something, wasting team slot.
Izzy's idea is good too, I just throw additional ideas.

[Triplefox]

Still thinking about this problem. Our ideal solution doesn't have to make griefing impossible, it just has to make griefing tedious. If we keep tuning the balancing so that only a very few players stay interested in griefing around objectives, it will become a manageable problem.

I considered a solution based on zoc's "undo blocks" so anyone could destroy the blocks still in anyone else's undo queue - which would allow griefers to have an "edit war," but not trap you, not without working very hard at it. Similar to izzy's idea 1, just not with a time limit(easier to work into current zoc implementation). However, I dislike it for the same reason that I disliked the teamkill-on-destroy mechanic; it adds too much potential fun, when we're trying to take the fun away from this part of the game.

I like the points idea a lot, though. We have tons of things that could factor into the calculation:

Enemy kills
Blocks in opposing zoc hit
Cost of 1 block destruction related to number of blocks it supports(destroying huge tower = expensive)
Age of block
# of people travelling on block
Time playing
Maximums for each of the above(e.g. you have to "unlock" a higher destruction budget by performing a variety of tasks)

Although I want to have a simple and predictable heuristic, it could be exposed to the user without giving away any of the numbers - if it's tuned well enough, they won't care: "Stop destroying your team's base! Go fight the enemy."

I also think time playing could be more valuable than we think, and probably the single factor most worth exploring right now:

Pure AFK griefers are likely to get kicked for being AFK. Griefers that are not AFK are either wandering around bored, construction griefing, or playing normally.

So the average-case destruction griefer is locked into a harmless or helpful position for several precious minutes, effectively getting hit with a "reverse ban" every time they play. Construction griefers are a little trickier, but we have evidence now that they have much less impact on the game, so we only need to give players a little bit of capability to work around them. 6 blocks sounds like the right number for a maximum budget, because it's enough to escape most prisons and to topple weak 1x1 and 2x2 structures, but not to accomplish anything more substantial.