Rebalance clips

[Build]

Actually disregarding logic is called "being illogical", I am not sure what you are trying to say about variables, but I can assure you that his disregard for logic is a constant.

He was refering to the variable of recoil in the smg in his quote that you quoted. Ever heard of illogical logic? Logic that is perfectly logical under a different perspective and set of circumstances.

For every 1 bullet you can hit the enemy with, 2 or even 3 will miss, even if you are scoped and pointing the gun right at their head. (Unless you're really close).

I'm trying to gather in all the Practicality elements of smg usage (aka the variables in practice) compared to you mathmatical statistics.

Now you attempt to be rigging the variables claiming that SMG is by nature extremely inaccurate? How about we cut to the chase and you tell me that SMG is only 1% accurate and therefore should have at least 200 times the ammo of the semi.

If you would kindly recalculate your time per kill ratios using these variables we could get to the bottom of this.

Variables: recoil (user error),reaiming time (correction of user error),initial accuracy of the weapon(physical coding which are base off variables themselves)

Then I added in other factors to support the assumption... You balanced that with this.

I don't think it is fair that SMG be allowed to kill more than twice as fast as the semi, plus retaining its ability to destroy blocks, suppress, and kill more and faster without as many reloads.

obvious conclusion is to shoot the smg user.

I'm honestly wondering why you didn't put all this together.

[Gorman]

Now you attempt to be rigging the variables claiming that SMG is by nature extremely inaccurate? How about we cut to the chase and you tell me that SMG is only 1% accurate and therefore should have at least 200 times the ammo of the semi.

If you would kindly recalculate your time per kill ratios using these variables we could get to the bottom of this.

Variables: recoil (user error),reaiming time (correction of user error),initial accuracy of the weapon(physical coding which are base off variables themselves)

Then I added in other factors to support the assumption... You balanced that with this.

I don't think it is fair that SMG be allowed to kill more than twice as fast as the semi, plus retaining its ability to destroy blocks, suppress, and kill more and faster without as many reloads.

obvious conclusion is to shoot the smg user.

I'm honestly wondering why you didn't put all this together.

Re-aim time is highly subjective - for good players it will be well below the delay for semi, but possibly above for SMG.

For recoil we can discount it for SMG since the usual "aim for the chest and the recoil gives you a free headshot on the second hit" makes it not of consequence, for Semi it is absorbed in to the reaim time anyway.

Accuracy of the weapons is 100%, modified by the spread factor (0.003 for Semi, 0.006 for SMG, 0.01 for shotgun), besides that the weapons are expected to engage at different ranges, so it is practically negligible unless we say "lets compare at 128 range" which is obviously rigged towards semi.

Thus there is no point in analysing such things to make a complex equation that will give us the same conclusion.

[CommandoDude]

I don't understand, you clam 100% accuracy with semi and yet claim that even when you try your best your accuracy with the SMG is only 66%?

No I didn't. I said for every bullet that hits, 2-3 will, by function, miss. And no, its not just recoil, the SMG inherently does not shoot straight 100% of the time. Even scoped on a motionless target, there is a good chance the bullet will simply miss the target.

Even with my best accuracy I am only ever one of the players with the most kills on the map. So I think I have a little authority in saying that, despite my good accuracy, the SMG always runs low on ammo fast, and that is is always because it takes way more bullets to kill one person than a rifle.

Previously by calculating equal hit ratios I showed that SMG has only marginally less kills while reloading less and shooting faster (ie it can make more kills per second compared to rifle, as a trade for having slightly less kills/total ammo).

It has much less potential kills than the rifle because the SMG has lots of inaccuracy built in. Most of the bullets get wasted, not to mention, since they do much less damage, it takes much more of them to kill.

Normally 3-5 bullets are needed to kill, half of those will probably miss. So, in generous terms, the best 1 clip could get you is 3-5 kills. Even assuming some extra bullets will miss due to recoil, and some will hit the head more often than not. Meanwhile, a rifleman can pretty much guarantee around 8-9 kills a clip if he is being careful, despite having "less" ammo, and he can shoot comfortably at any range.

Now you attempt to be rigging the variables claiming that SMG is by nature extremely inaccurate? How about we cut to the chase and you tell me that SMG is only 1% accurate and therefore should have at least 200 times the ammo of the semi.

I'm not rigging anything. I am saying your math is useless. Sure, that is what is theoretically possible, but it has no practical application.

Actually disregarding logic is called "being illogical", I am not sure what you are trying to say about variables, but I can assure you that his disregard for logic is a constant.

This has nothing to do with "logic". You just use a bunch of bullshit math and then when I say it's crap you call me "Illogical". No, the "math" is flawed, because its assuming impossible performances and failing to account for other factors, like the fact the SMG is inaccurate.

Please let us consider the rate of kills too;
SMG: 5 kills per second
Semi: 2 kills per second
SMG time for full kills: 10 seconds / 50 kills + 7.5 seconds
Semi time for full kills: 30 seconds / 60 kills + 12.5 seonds

You propose raising the time for full kills to;
13 seconds / 60 kills + 10 seconds
I don't think it is fair that SMG be allowed to kill more than twice as fast as the semi, plus retaining its ability to destroy blocks, suppress, and kill more and faster without as many reloads.

See this? It's bollocks. All of it. The SMG can't kill 5 people in 1 second. It can't even kill 5 people in 1 clip except under maybe extremely favorable circumstances.

The rifle could at least manage 1 kill in 1 second, since it only requires a head shot and is 100% accurate disregarding the recoil.

It doesn't matter than the SMG can kill "twice as fast" (which really, it can't) if the SMG runs out of ammo after a few kills. A dedicated sniper could amass twice as many kills just sitting in a tower, safe from SMG shooters. Or in their face, it doesn't matter since the head hitbox is so big rifle guys can compete with SMGs even at short range because their guns do so much damage but they still have a high ROF.

[Build]

For recoil we can discount it for SMG since the usual "aim for the chest and the recoil gives you a free headshot on the second hit" makes it not of consequence, for Semi it is absorbed in to the reaim time anyway.

You're body shot hit is 24, if this is your strategy for aiming the smg, then you've already admitted to usually using 3 shots instead of 2 to kill somone. Unless of course you were aiming for the head in which by the same principle your second shot would miss. Thus the recalculated Re-aiming time of the smg hinders it in porportion to the Semi.

/end discussion, give the smg a 25 hit body shot or another clip of ammo to "balance" it or cling to the Semi superiority group. (I actually think that includes the Dev Ben too based on what I've heard from some of our more "respected" members in old forum posts)

I suggest joining the IRC all these respected people keep talking about if you actually want to have an opinion.

EDIT: disgusting mistakes

[Gorman]

[quote="Gordon]For recoil we can discount it for SMG since the usual "aim for the chest and the recoil gives you a free headshot on the second hit" makes it not of consequence, for Semi it is absorbed in to the reaim time anyway.[/quote]
You're body shot hit is 24, if this is your strategy for aiming the smg, then you've already admitted to usually using 3 shots instead of 2 to kill somone. Unless of course you were aiming for the head in which by the same principle your second shot would miss. Thus the recalculated Re-aiming time of the smg hinders it in porportion to the Semi.

/end discussion, give the smg a 25 hit body shot or another clip of ammo to "balance" it or cling to the Semi superiority group. (I actually think that includes the Dev Ben too based on what I've heard from some of our more "respected" members in old forum posts)

I suggestion joining the IRC all these respected people keep talking about if you actually want to have an opinion.[/quote]

> idle in IRC 24 hours a day, get told to go to IRC
> ominous mention of old forum posts and respected members
> NOT SURE IF SERIOUS

Recalculating aiming time is trivial if you consider engagement distance and delay.

[Build]

Recalculating aiming time is trivial if you consider engagement distance and delay.

*facepalm*

[Gorman]

Recalculating aiming time is trivial if you consider engagement distance and delay.

*facepalm*

At engage distance <80 re-aim is not even necessary so considering that SMG engage distance is around 80-30 there is no point in considering 128, and considering that delay (.1 for SMG, .5 for semi) if higher than re-aim time it has no affect.


Please explain why your facepalm is not spam.

[Build]

At engage distance <80 re-aim is not even necessary so considering that SMG engage distance is around 80-30 there is no point in considering 128, and considering that delay (.1 for SMG, .5 for semi) if higher than re-aim time it has no affect.

80 what?

Did you just ignore this?

You're body shot hit is 24, if this is your strategy for aiming the smg, then you've already admitted to usually using 3 shots instead of 2 to kill somone. Unless of course you were aiming for the head in which by the same principle your second shot would miss. Thus the recalculated Re-aiming time of the smg hinders it in porportion to the Semi.

Please explain why your facepalm is not spam.

Use your imagination.

[Gorman]

At engage distance <80 re-aim is not even necessary so considering that SMG engage distance is around 80-30 there is no point in considering 128, and considering that delay (.1 for SMG, .5 for semi) if higher than re-aim time it has no affect.

80 what?

"engage distance <80"
So, I am talking about 80 distance...

Did you just ignore this?

You're body shot hit is 24, if this is your strategy for aiming the smg, then you've already admitted to usually using 3 shots instead of 2 to kill somone. Unless of course you were aiming for the head in which by the same principle your second shot would miss. Thus the recalculated Re-aiming time of the smg hinders it in porportion to the Semi.

Please explain why your facepalm is not spam.

Use your imagination.

I did ignore it because it doesn't matter, 0.3 is still less than 0.5, isn't it?



EDIT: SMG does need more ammo to facilitate anti-material, not for this silly logic trying to make SMG compete with Semi for kills XD

[Bobbunny]

+1.

An extra mag or two to the SMG.

No nerfing the rifle though, that is really not needed.

[Build]

I did ignore it because it doesn't matter, 0.3 is still less than 0.5, isn't it?

It takes 3 shots of an smg to kill somone .3 x3 shots is .9 rifle is still .5. 50% of the time a rifle user will kill you before you can kill him using the smg. That should not happen, but it does, so we get more ammo to make it a more versatile weapon. Why do you hate the smg so much?

Edit: quote fail... again

[Gorman]

[quote="Gropeman]I did ignore it because it doesn't matter, 0.3 is still less than 0.5, isn't it?[/quote]
It takes 3 shots of an smg to kill somone .3 x3 shots is .9 rifle is still .5. 50% of the time a rifle user will kill you before you can kill him using the smg. That should not happen, but it does, so we get more ammo to make it a more versatile weapon. Why do you hate the smg so much?[/quote][/quote]

SMG delay is .1, not .3

Like I said, .3 < .5

Perhaps now that you realise that SMG is three times as strong as you thought it was you will reconsider.

[Build]

^Understood.

Only other thing I can think of is the direct interaction between smg vs semi, and the fact that even though you may fire faster then the semi, the bullets stil travel at the same velocity. Plus the fact that if you die your bullets won't have any effect.

Ever see anyone die at the same time by each other? - I don't think so.

So either this or fixing the above mentioned would increase the ability of the smg.

/end discussion.

[Gorman]

^Understood.

Only other thing I can think of is the direct interaction between smg vs semi, and the fact that even though you may fire faster then the semi, the bullets stil travel at the same velocity. Plus the fact that if you die your bullets won't have any effect.

Ever see anyone die at the same time by each other? - I don't think so.

So either this or fixing the above mentioned would increase the ability of the smg.

/end discussion.

Yes, AoS uses hitscans so no simultaneous deaths.

SMG should not compete against semi at fog range though, SMG is best at anti-material.

[Tek2]

^Understood.

Only other thing I can think of is the direct interaction between smg vs semi, and the fact that even though you may fire faster then the semi, the bullets stil travel at the same velocity. Plus the fact that if you die your bullets won't have any effect.

Ever see anyone die at the same time by each other? - I don't think so.

So either this or fixing the above mentioned would increase the ability of the smg.

/end discussion.

Yes, AoS uses hitscans so no simultaneous deaths.

SMG should not compete against semi at fog range though, SMG is best at anti-material.

Another mag would fit it nicely, more bullets to shoot walls. :D